+3 energy vs +30 armor - Page 5 - Guild Wars Forums

The Meth · May 01, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

You are failing at energy management and making a build that can't work effectively for an extended period of time and requires you to stand around with your thumbs up your ass to regen between fights? Good for you. I will instead use good builds that can just keep fighting and beat the area in half the time.

Savio · May 01, 2008, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

What us pro-Radiant people are saying is that if you have a bit of extra energy, you can survive without as much E-management. Another way to look at it is this: If I use 50 energy in a given fight and I start with 30, I need enough E-management to regain 20 energy during the fight. If I start with 38, I only need to get back 12.

There isn't a situation where you wouldn't want as much energy management as possible. Also, for caster professions you're burning through significantly more than 50 energy a battle, so that 8 energy is barely a blip in your energy pool.

I also don't know any situation in which you would want +20 energy on a ranger.

kazjun · May 01, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Solo trapping maybe, you need to be able to spam traps on recharge, so this gives a bit more energy if you're lazy with spirits.

Though the main use of this would be as an SS necro. As a two man echo SS, you shouldn't get hit by anything. Well, maybe the odd dying nightmare you try to spawn, but on the whole you're as far away as possible. What matters is that you have enough energy to go echo SS as often as possible.

But otherwise, yeah, hard to one hit someone at 600+ hp as opposed to 480 hp. Surviving the hits till you can get healed is more important than having a bit more enrgy.

Fury Incarnate · May 01, 2008, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

There isn't a situation where you wouldn't want as much energy management as possible. Also, for caster professions you're burning through significantly more than 50 energy a battle, so that 8 energy is barely a blip in your energy pool.

I also don't know any situation in which you would want +20 energy on a ranger.

I'm not talking exclusively about Rangers or casters, I'm just making a general point. Also, if you can't think of any situations where you want some +energy on a Ranger, you either haven't played them or haven't tried a wide variety of builds on them. And if you read my initial post, I'm not at all suggesting Radiants are always better (particularly on caster class, I prefer Survivors), just that there ARE times when they're extremely useful.

Kazjun, that's the case a lot of the time, yes. But particularly in PvE that's not as much of an issue, particularly if you're running a build with decent survivability on it.

Meth, I'm not even going to bother responding beyond this.

Bront · May 01, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

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Originally Posted by odly

Maximum health is not health management either.
But try to make that point stick in these survivor insignia rules forums.

No, but you don't die if you run out of energy, and it gives your healers a bigger margin of error. Plus, they become more important if you ever end up with some DP.

Bront · May 01, 2008, 06:43 AM // 06:43

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Originally Posted by Dark Kal

A bigger energy pool allows for longer energy management it's common sense. If have the same build on a character with 40 energy and a character with 48 energy both played by the same player, the character with 48 energy will be able to keep his buid up the longest, that's called logic. That's assuming '=!' means 'doesn't equal', I'm not too sure, I think I remember it from programming class.

You can't say more energy doesn't equal energy management while at the same time say more health does equal health management.

You can, quite easily actually.

Your example isn't energy management. Your example is 2 identical people, where 1 has more energy. Guy with 40 energy could kill the guy with 48 energy before the 8 energy comes into play possibly anyway.

Here's the issue. Guy with 40 energy who has energy management may use a net 1 energy per second (all said and done) when going full out, so he can fight all out for 40 seconds in a row at most. Guy with 50 Energy using radiants as Energy management uses energy twice as fast because he isn't using energy management skills uses 2 energy net per second, can fight for 25 seconds all out in a row at most.

Meanwhile, guy with survivor insignias can also fight longer because he stays alive longer without healing. Degen damage is less dangerous to him, as are deep wounds. The monk can pause for a second longer to heal him, or instead use a protection.

Now, with equal energy management, yes, more energy is good, but if the energy pool from stock armor + Weapons/foci (and a reasonable E-storage for Elementalists) isn't enough for your build, you're better off looking for better energy management than you are simply increasing the available energy.

Exceptions being builds involving exhaustion and low initial energy totals, like Shock Axe, and even then, Energy Management > Energy total.

JR · May 01, 2008, 08:36 AM // 08:36

If your energy is going to bottom out and leave you struggling without Radiant, then it is going to do the same with Radiant.

Yes, 80% of the time in PvE when you are just blowing through small mobs max energy pool can seem to be optimal because you regen between mobs and the fights are over very quickly. However, whenever you are in a fight that actually matters (like over-agro, a tough boss mob, etc) you want your energy to be at a maintainable level over a longer period of time with your build. Radiant insignias will not help here.

There are only a few cases I can think of where Radiant is logical:

- Assassin build with an energy expensive chain.
- Cripshot style Ranger in PvP, because they are simply so durable to begin with (personally I would still run Survivors anyway).
- Warrior bars with Shock, simply because being quite liberal with your Shock can get kills.

You may get the point; these are PvP oriented charaters. Radiant is just not worth it in PvE.

Quaker · May 01, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Well, what a retarded mess this thread has become. Not only is there a lot of useless "My build is better than your build" BS, the OP was asking about heroes, not humans!
It should be obvious to even those of limited intelligence that it comes down to "whatever works for you." Especially when it comes to PvE.

In answer to the OP's question:

1. The armor bonuses don't stack.
2. I tend to go for extra health on heroes as opposed to extra armor or energy, primarily because extra health helps protect against degen. But that's just me - "Whatever works for you" is fine.

Carinae · May 01, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

There are only a few cases I can think of where Radiant is logical:

- Assassin build with an energy expensive chain.
- Cripshot style Ranger in PvP, because they are simply so durable to begin with (personally I would still run Survivors anyway).
- Warrior bars with Shock, simply because being quite liberal with your Shock can get kills.

Add 55 builds to that. But yea, I agree.

Dark Kal · May 02, 2008, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Energy regens in combat, health does not. Therefore, max health is infinately more important than max energy.

Health regens outside of combat. Regardlessly, I only said what I said to point out the obvious simularity between health and energy. Yes, energy regens in combat while health doesn't, it's also easier to heal yourself with skills than it is to regen energy with skills, which counters this point. Both my health and energy management skills are good. I'm not saying either survivor or radiant insignia is better than the other, both are good it all depends on personal preference.

Quote:

Especially when you take into account (as others have said) your health is always at the mercy of your enemy, and your energy rarely is.

I don't know about you but I use self-healing, shield stances, etc... even without any of those you can still run away from your enemies it's called health management, maximum health does not equal health management.

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your energy rarely is.

http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mesmer

I know they aren't played much but come on. But your energy and health are affected by yourself and the enemy, saying otherwise is folly.

Kale Ironfist · May 02, 2008, 01:06 PM // 13:06

The fact that health regens outside of combat is a completely useless fact, it has no bearing on the fact that the discussion is about whether extra max health or extra max energy is better. The only time either will matter is if you're in combat.

Also, energy management is not just skills on your skillbar that add to your energy, it's also knowing how and when to use your skills for maximum benefit while minimising skill use, and also using free skills over an energy costing skill (like say, Signet of Rejuvenation over a Dwayna's Kiss).

What you also gloss over is the fact that spikes can kill before heals go through. A higher max hp means they may not kill you before the heal comes in.

Quote:

your energy rarely is.

Quote:

I know they aren't played much but come on.

You just agreed with the point...? Unless you have another definition of 'rare'.

Also, of the health management skills, they are best out-sourced to your backline, because their skills are just so much stronger. Thus, it's not going to impact your energy, but their energy, and with good energy management skills, it's not going to impact energy levels at all, so there's no point putting in extra max energy.

Basically, the point is:
1. You know how to manage your energy
2. At this point, you've learned how to play with a lower energy pool
3. For what purpose does extra max energy give you now? With poor energy management, you're still going to get drained. With good energy management, you're very likely to never dip low enough that it would matter. Moreover, exposing energy is a bad tactic in the event the opponent has energy removal skills, which is why it's better to have a dedicated weapon slot, which will give you more max energy than radiants will ever provide for you, and it's only temporary, so the effect of lower energy regeneration is almost nil.

Thus, for general purposes, you don't put radiant insignia on your armor.

Earth · May 02, 2008, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Oh btw, if you're against a mesmer who's good at e-denial, the extra 8 energy won't help you.

Jetdoc · May 02, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

- Assassin build with an energy expensive chain.
- Cripshot style Ranger in PvP, because they are simply so durable to begin with (personally I would still run Survivors anyway).
- Warrior bars with Shock, simply because being quite liberal with your Shock can get kills.

In addition to Carinae's 55 HP build, I would also add:

- Trapping rangers. Even with a +20 energy staff, laying down a series of 6-7 traps/spirits sometimes requires the extra energy. If you're solo/group trapping, the extra health or armor really is meaningless, as your enemy will be dead before he even gets a shot at you.

- High-energy spirit spamming ritualists. Laying down several 25 energy spirits can require a massive energy pool that is easily regenerable after you lay them down, but not during.

The only other instance that I can think of off the top of my head is to have a "switch off" armor in PvE when the DP gets high, especially on low energy classes. It may be impossible to get basic functionality out of your character if you don't have a minimum energy level to start because of DP problems.

Unreal Havoc · May 02, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And you're only weaponswapping for things like "TNTF!" out of battle if you're running an Imbagon, and even then you should be mashing the button assigned to "SY!" while in battle.

Why, when running an imbagon, are you using TNTF out of battle when you should be spamming Anthem of Flame or if really nessacary GFTE?

In any case this debate is pretty pointless. Simply use what suits YOUR playing style and YOUR build the best. All the senseless flaming and bickering is getting this topic nowhere.

angmar_nite · May 02, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

TNTF saves a slot... And it's instant. And there is only one good playing style and a few good builds. Survivor/Centurion is the only way to roll for those.

Tyla · May 03, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Kal

I'm not saying either survivor or radiant insignia is better than the other, both are good it all depends on personal preference.

And personal preferance is opinion, not fact. I preferred my Mesmer hero in Mandragorway, but if I used a Necro hero I could've saved a skillslot and had miles better energy management.

@Unreal Havok -- It saves you the skillslots, although I understand it on a non-Imbagon build.
On an Imbagon, the more slots the better, Racthoh's usually used Imbagon build is a good example.

May 01, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28	#81
The Meth Desert Nomad Join Date: Jan 2007 Profession: R/	You are failing at energy management and making a build that can't work effectively for an extended period of time and requires you to stand around with your thumbs up your ass to regen between fights? Good for you. I will instead use good builds that can just keep fighting and beat the area in half the time.

May 01, 2008, 04:09 AM // 04:09	#83
kazjun Desert Nomad Join Date: Aug 2006 Guild: HoVa Profession: W/N	Solo trapping maybe, you need to be able to spam traps on recharge, so this gives a bit more energy if you're lazy with spirits. Though the main use of this would be as an SS necro. As a two man echo SS, you shouldn't get hit by anything. Well, maybe the odd dying nightmare you try to spawn, but on the whole you're as far away as possible. What matters is that you have enough energy to go echo SS as often as possible. But otherwise, yeah, hard to one hit someone at 600+ hp as opposed to 480 hp. Surviving the hits till you can get healed is more important than having a bit more enrgy.

May 01, 2008, 08:36 AM // 08:36	#87
JR Re:tired Join Date: Nov 2005 Profession: W/	If your energy is going to bottom out and leave you struggling without Radiant, then it is going to do the same with Radiant. Yes, 80% of the time in PvE when you are just blowing through small mobs max energy pool can seem to be optimal because you regen between mobs and the fights are over very quickly. However, whenever you are in a fight that actually matters (like over-agro, a tough boss mob, etc) you want your energy to be at a maintainable level over a longer period of time with your build. Radiant insignias will not help here. There are only a few cases I can think of where Radiant is logical: - Assassin build with an energy expensive chain. - Cripshot style Ranger in PvP, because they are simply so durable to begin with (personally I would still run Survivors anyway). - Warrior bars with Shock, simply because being quite liberal with your Shock can get kills. You may get the point; these are PvP oriented charaters. Radiant is just not worth it in PvE.

May 01, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23	#88
Quaker Hell's Protector Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Canada Guild: Brothers Disgruntled	Well, what a retarded mess this thread has become. Not only is there a lot of useless "My build is better than your build" BS, the OP was asking about heroes, not humans! It should be obvious to even those of limited intelligence that it comes down to "whatever works for you." Especially when it comes to PvE. In answer to the OP's question: 1. The armor bonuses don't stack. 2. I tend to go for extra health on heroes as opposed to extra armor or energy, primarily because extra health helps protect against degen. But that's just me - "Whatever works for you" is fine.

May 02, 2008, 01:29 PM // 13:29	#92
Earth Always Outnumbered Join Date: Jul 2006	Oh btw, if you're against a mesmer who's good at e-denial, the extra 8 energy won't help you.

May 02, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23	#95
angmar_nite Jungle Guide Join Date: Feb 2007 Guild: [SNOW] of [YUM] Profession: E/	TNTF saves a slot... And it's instant. And there is only one good playing style and a few good builds. Survivor/Centurion is the only way to roll for those.